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Sleegath
rejavarti
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re: FREE ADVICE: Jedi Sage DPS

Alright, I'm trying to figure out where and what I am doing wrong with my DPS numbers. I posted up my specs and parse on a 1 mil dummy. What am I doing wrong?



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Wyllym
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re: FREE ADVICE: Jedi Sage DPS

A couple quick thoughts.  If I'm on tonight, I will jump on my Sage and run a quick parse to compare notes.

  • You can clip your parse a little bit to get a better result.  You did over 1 million damage, so I am guessing you probably killed the Dummy then re-engaged the re-spawn.  That is tough since it extends your parse and takes several seconds to de-aggro.  Try clipping the parse to the smallest amount over 1 million you can get and that will be a cleaner DPS figure.
  • Turbulence is a 100% critical which is solid.  That is the 1st key to Sage DPS.  Weaken Mind's DPS of 566 looks fine so that is presumably 100% uptime.
  • I'm a bit surprised that Weaken Mind is 3rd in DPS.  I would expect Telekinetic Wave to be above it and Telekinetic Burst to be a lot closer to it.  Are you using those on CD or close to it?  Bad crits could explain part of it (and probably explains Gust...ouch only 12.5% crit rate?!)
  • Other thing to work on is APM.  42.8 is a bit low for Sage TK.  I think a good goal is 48+ for a dummy parse or a boss fight with minimal movement.  Last parse I did the other night was around 48-49 on Karagga, I think.  Clipping the parse will help some.
  • Not sure about gearing...accuracy looks good but I don't remember how Critical and Alacrity translate.  Are you pretty close to 3:2 ratio of Crit/Alacrity?  I believe that is (close) to optimal on most DPS builds, including Sages.

 



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re: FREE ADVICE: Jedi Sage DPS

-Your APM is pretty low as Wyllym said, are you using the ability queue? Sometimes it is easier if you increase the window on the ability queue, especially if your latency isn't great.

-Your Power/Mastery is about 600 low considering your tertiary stat budget (looks like 216 gear).  This is likely a result of using lettered mods, which sacrifice Master/Power for Endurance.

-No need to worry about doing more than 1mil damage.  It is usally a result of "overkilling" the dummy, i.e. you hit it for 15k when it only had 1k left.

- Turbulence is your most important rotational ability, it must be used on CD (around 8.4 seconds with your alacrity).  Your usage in the parse was every 13.7 seconds.  

- TK Wave should only be used with the proc from Turbulence in a single target situation, so your TK wave and TB usage should be the same.  In your parse you have more TK Waves than TBs, so you were likely using TK Wave without the proc.

- TK Gust should be used on CD unless it would delay TB.  TK Gust's CD with your alacrity is about 13.9-14 seconds.  Your usage was every 17.125 seconds.

- Mind Crush has the same CD as TK Gust and should be used on CD unless it would delay TB or TK Gust, and only with the buff from TK Gust.  The buff lasts for 12 seconds after Gust, but usually you will have MC immediately after TK Gust.  Your MC usage was once ever 34.25 seconds, when it should be every 14.

- Because you are delaying your important abilities so much, you are using a lot more TK Bursts than expected.  TK Burst is essentially your lowest priority.  Also, I'm not entirely sure your specific reason for using Force Speed, but the only DPS gain you get from the TK Burst from Force Speed is if you can fit in one last TK Burst under an adrenal/mental alacrity/relic proc window without delaying your other heavy hitters.  In most actual fights, Force Speed is too important to use for this tiny DPS gain, unless you know you will not need it.  In a raid environment, the instant cast lets you use it while moving, which is great since you are presumably using force speed to move, or if you know you won't need to move, you can use it to eliminate push back from raid-wide AoE damage.

- One last note, to get a better understanding of where your dps actually is, you should be using at least a 1.5mil dummy, especially as you improve your rotation.  The shorter the parse, the more influenced it is by burst openers and the more likely RNG crits skew it.

 

Anyways, This should give you plenty of stuff to improve on.  If any of this doesn't make sense to you, we can talk here or in game to clear everything up.



Last edited by wliem on Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:45 pm; edited 1 time in total


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rejavarti
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re: FREE ADVICE: Jedi Sage DPS

I will try to redo this tonight, I will not be on for Ops tonight as I have a parade to go to, but when I am on later, I will redo the parse.  During Ops, I am normally pulling around 4-4400 DPS at the end of the fight (If I can stay Static during the fight)

I probably could bring my Critical up a little bit, 2/3 of 1128 is 751, so I'm gong to have to figure out how to juggle some enhancements and augments around to bring that up a little more and keep what I have already if possible.

I try to use everything on cooldown as much as possible (my hand-eye co-ord is not 100% so I might miss some things going on cooldown, but try to hit them as much as possible). I did this parse on my lunch time on my work comp, but on my home comp, I have weaken mind set on a timer through StarParse to know when it will be falling off, so I know to re-apply it. I might have to add one or 2 more to the timer so that I can catch them right as they end their cooldown.

Thanks for the insight there Wyllym, After seeing what you Obe and Jerit were pulling on Sat night with your sages (between 5-5800 DPS), makes me want to figure out what I am doing wrong.

 



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re: FREE ADVICE: Jedi Sage DPS

Your Tertiary Stat distribution is fine.  Min-Maxing to the "exact optimal" stats is minuscule.  Variance from lucky/unlucky crits has a much larger impact than swapping 50 alacrity for 50 crit.  As for using everything on CD, it is possible rearranging your abilities on your quickbar can help, but just practicing and getting a feel for every abilities CD is the most important thing.  TK Wave will refresh the duration of weaken mind, so during a dummy parse and all single target fights, you will never have to reappy weaken mind.



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re: FREE ADVICE: Jedi Sage DPS

Thanks Venser, I must have missed your reply last time I replied. I am running a 6 piece set bonus (5 216 and 1 220, with gloves non set bonus). My abilities go Mind Crush, Weaken Mind, Turbulence, Telekinetic Burst, Telekinetic Gust and then Telekinetic Wave (that's on the top line, and phasewalk, cloud mind, mental alacrity, force potency, force speed and force barrier on the lower line)

My opening Rotation is MC, WM, Tub, TB, TG and then TW (procs), as for middle rotation I try to take stuff off of cooldown. I do use Telekinetic burst a little too much, some of it I think has to do with running a 1s ability window and over clicking the TB button.

I will keep a closer eye on my cooldowns (especially Turbulence) and see how that improves.

I know that I was talking to Wyllym, Jerit and Obe about this on Sat over mumble, but I'm more of a visual person, so to get this down on paper and being able to read it over and absorb it helps.

Thanks Again. I'll post a parse up later tonight and see if I improved any.



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re: FREE ADVICE: Jedi Sage DPS

 

By way of reference and comparison, here is a quick parse on my Sage Zhenyfyr.  No stim, no adrenal, and no Force Empowerment.  As far as gear, she has a 220 Hilt in both MH and OH, with mostly optimized enhancements, but only 198 relics, Mk-2 Ear/Implants, 192 6-piece, still old 186 augments (mastery - so not even crit/alacrity) and entirely unoptimized mods (A mods).  So still plenty of room for gear to improve performance...

APM is almost 46, which is still a bit low.  I am also a bit slow on Turbulence (cast one too many TK Bursts a few times) and also missed the proc on Mind Crush once.  Point is this is by no means a "perfect parse" or anything.  Hope it helps.



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re: FREE ADVICE: Jedi Sage DPS

Just did this one, I still have to bring up my APM, (And do it on a 1.5 mil dummy) but results are showing, here you can see how my screen and bars are set up (I also did not hit Mental Alacrity or Force potency in that parse either)



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re: FREE ADVICE: Jedi Sage DPS

Made a couple mistakes in my first post.  Turbulence and Mind Crush's cooldowns are actually 1 GCD longer than what I wrote sine the CD does not actually start until the ability goes off at the end of the GCD, and I did not take into account the 5% alacrity in the TK Tree, and Mental Alacrity (which time averages out to be about 5%) usage.  Using 8% Alacrity + 5% from your tree + 5% from Mental Alacrity, your GCD ends up being 1.5/(1.18)=1.27 Seconds.  Corrected values are as follows:

Turbulence: Base CD is 7 GCDS (10.5) => 8.89

TK Gust:     Base CD is 10 GCDS (15) = > 12.7

MC:            Base CD is 11 GCDS (16.5) => 13.97

In reality, because Mental Alacrity provides uneven amounts of alacrity, the first time you use TB, TK Gust, MC after Mental Alacrity wears off, it will be delayed by roughly a second since the current GCD will be longer than the GCD when it was used under MA, so the actual average usage of each of the abilities will be a couple tenths of a second higher than what is written above.

 

From my experiences, the best way to learn and practice a priority list rotation (as is TK sage), I'll start with an infinite health dummy and only use the main filler (TK Burst) and the highest hitting ability (TB).  Then, I'll gradually add in abilities one at a time in order of their priority.  For TK, I would start off with TK Burst and TB.  When I am comfortable with that, I'll start adding in TK Gust, then MC, then lastly TK Wave.  What this does, is it breaks everything down to its simplest form, then gradually makes it more and more complicated so as to not be overwhelming.  Anyways, your second parse should substantial improvement.  Your ability usage was much better than before especially when you take into account that MA adds 2-300 DPS, and Force Potency is around 100.  Keep up the good work, and as always, if you have questions, ask away.



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re: FREE ADVICE: Jedi Sage DPS

Here is my last one for the night, done on a 1.5 mil dummy with MA and FP, I know there were a few times that I screwed up with the TB being actuated one too many times. Thanks again for all the help with this.

MC Cooldown is 13.8

Turb Cooldown is 8.3

TK Gust Cooldown is 13.8

(these are right off the tool tips)



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re: FREE ADVICE: Jedi Sage DPS

I will leave this as the last one, Was talking with Wyllym last night quickly at Ops, when he parsed his above, he had shattered armor going (all the ones before that I parsed, were without shattered armor) so I did one this morning with shattered armor debuff and definitely helped raise DPS numbers (not sure who else runs shattered armor when dummy parsing and if that is the norm). Thanks again Wyllym and Venser for all your help



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re: FREE ADVICE: Jedi Sage DPS

Wow, big improvment.  Shattered armor is essentially always used, but depending on your class/spec it will affect things varying amounts.  It is essentially there to simulate the debuffs that certain classes apply to bosses in a raid environment.  Sage/Sorc get one of the smallest changes with it.  The big jump from to your last parse was primarily ability usage.  Your big abilities had much better usage than any of the previous parses.  Your biggest area for improvement now will be getting your APM up, which will come with practice and just getting more familiar with CDs and your rotation.



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re: FREE ADVICE: Jedi Sage DPS

 Hey all,

I was talking with Rejavarti the other night about my Sage and he pointed me to the thread here which has been very helpful.  I am not as far along in gearing as Rej is, I have a 220 hilt, 216 off-hand and a mix of 2 - 216 set pieces, 5 - 204 pvp pieces and 1 - 216 non-set piece.  Running 216 ear and implants and PVP 204 relics.  Was wondering if you had any pointers for improving that I should incorporate?  This was a really long parse because I wanted to practice recovering if I flubbed during the rotation.  It feels like I probably use TK Burst too much?  There are times when it seems close to the cool down on Turbulence and I try to put in one more and that may be hurting me.  The screen shot has the parse capture and my current stats window up.  I'd appreciate any pointers on trying to improve.  

Thanks!

Wren

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re: FREE ADVICE: Jedi Sage DPS

Well drat, the image insert is not working for me.  I'll have to try again in a while.

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rejavarti
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re: FREE ADVICE: Jedi Sage DPS

Do you have the 1.5 million and Shattered Armor debuffs for the training dummy? It will help by running a decent parse that will end (approx 5 minutes) When it ends, you will stop running the parse instead of running the parse after you stop casting. The shattered Armor debuff as Venser said above, will simulate an Ops environment that different classes will put on the boss. 

Make sure that you apply both Mind Crush and Turbulence off cooldown. Also make sure that Mental Alacrity and Force potency are used off cooldown as well. 

This all typed off my phone, I will add more when I get back to my computer.

I'm running a 5 pieces of 216 set bonus with 1 220 set bonus, one 220 non set bonus piece, 220 hilt in 216 mainhand, 216 offhand (Both from ops), 220 earpiece from comms, 216 implants (from comms), 208 Pvp relics, and I will have to go onto the comp and look at exactly what my augments are (all of remembering what I have, would have to let you know exactly, my augments changed since that last parse as well

*edit* - Here is the gear that I have on right now, it is not optimal by any means, but should give you a baseline to shoot for.

Head -        216 Set Bonus with Alacrity Aug

Jacket -       216 Set Bonus with Alacrity Aug

Gloves -      220 Comms gear with Alacrity Aug

Belt -           220 Set Bonus with Alacrity Aug

Pants -        216 Set Bonus with Alacrity Aug

Boots -        216 Set Bonus with Critical Aug

Bracers-      220 Set Bonus with Accuracy Aug

Mainhand -  220 Hilt with rest 216 Ops with Crit Aug and Crit Crystal

Offhand -     216 Ops Gear with Crit Aug and Crit Crystal

Earpiece -    216 Quick Savant Mk-1 Ops gear with Crit Aug

Implant 1 -   216 Initiative Mk-1 Ops Gear with Crit Aug

Implant 2 -   216 Proficient Mk-4 Comms gear with Alacrity Aug

Relic 1 -        208 PvP Focused Retribution with Critical Aug

Relic 2 -        208 PvP Serendipitous Assault with Critical Aug

Wren, here is the video, remember, it is by no means the right way to do it, but it will give you an idea of how I have been pulling some DPS. The countdown that you hear in the background, is my Turbulence and Mind Crush, It gives me audible warning to when both are going to fall off. That is done through StarParse with timers. This Parse was 5264 DPS with 43.5 APM



Last edited by rejavarti on Thu Dec 31, 2015 1:45 am; edited 1 time in total


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